Hidemine Jibiki – Hakko-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo, and “The Road to Softness”, Part 1
May 17, 2014
Hidemine Jibiki (地曳秀峰) started out as a student of Karate with Shotokan Karate Founder Gichin Funakoshi (船越義珍). From there he moved on to Hakko-ryu Jujutsu (八光流柔術) with the Founder of that art, Okuyama Ryuho (奥山龍峰), and then Daito-ryu Aiki Budo (大東流合気武道) with Tsunejiro Hosono (細野恒次郎) and Kotaro Yoshida (吉田幸太郎). He ended up in the Chinese internal martial arts as a student of Wang Shu-Jin (王樹金), who was one of the pioneers of Chinese internal martial arts in Japan. Wang Shu-jin had some points of interaction with the Aikido community through American Aikido student Terry Dobson, who trained with him in Tokyo.
This is the first part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, which begins with his his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder, Shodai Soke Ryuho Okuyama.
This is the first part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, which begins with his his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder, Shodai Soke Ryuho Okuyama.
Hidemine Jibiki – Hakko-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo, and “The Road to Softness”, Part 1(translated by Christopher Li)
Ten years passed in hard Karate training and through a chance turn of events Hidemine Jibiki came to see weaknesses in his Karate. He was made aware of this when a drunken friend unexpectedly turned violent.
Coming to a Turning Point
Q: In the last interview you said that you had begun to have reservations about Karate….
A: About ten years had passed, and I had thrown my self entirely into Karate training, believing it to be a rational and practical form of self defense. Then, I was unable to pacify a friend who had become intoxicated. Karate focuses primarily upon punches and kicks, and there were no controlling techniques. I began to think that, when it comes right down to it, this would be insufficient as a form of self defense.
Ten years passed in hard Karate training and through a chance turn of events Hidemine Jibiki came to see weaknesses in his Karate. He was made aware of this when a drunken friend unexpectedly turned violent.
Coming to a Turning Point
Q: In the last interview you said that you had begun to have reservations about Karate….
A: About ten years had passed, and I had thrown my self entirely into Karate training, believing it to be a rational and practical form of self defense. Then, I was unable to pacify a friend who had become intoxicated. Karate focuses primarily upon punches and kicks, and there were no controlling techniques. I began to think that, when it comes right down to it, this would be insufficient as a form of self defense.
Q: And was that a major turning point for you?
A: Yes, it was. It was when I was around twenty-seven years old…
Held down with a single thumb?Q: What happened then?
A: In any case, I began to look around. It was a time when there were none of the Budo magazines that we have today. I had no clue where to go. One day at the Kannon-sama in Asakusa I encountered something that can only be described as fate…
Q: Was that at Asakusa Temple?
A: That’s right. When I was a child I was raised in Shitaya, so I often went there to play.
A: Yes, it was. It was when I was around twenty-seven years old…
Held down with a single thumb?Q: What happened then?
A: In any case, I began to look around. It was a time when there were none of the Budo magazines that we have today. I had no clue where to go. One day at the Kannon-sama in Asakusa I encountered something that can only be described as fate…
Q: Was that at Asakusa Temple?
A: That’s right. When I was a child I was raised in Shitaya, so I often went there to play.
Q: So you felt a connection to this place.
A: At that time I met a fortune teller on the grounds of the temple. I’ve forgotten how we met, but the title on that person’s business card said “Jujutsu Shihan”. Judo was in its prime at the time, and everybody adored “Sugata Sanshiro” (姿三四郎). In the novel Jujutsu was just something that had been weeded out by the new Budo, Judo, so I thought it was really old-fashioned. But that person said that with Jujutsu one could hold an opponent so they couldn’t move with just a single thumb.
Q: Ehh! Just one thumb?
A: I thought “That’s ridiculous!” too. So I said “I do Karate, so could you try applying that technique?”, and they said “Well then, I’ll introduce you to my teacher” and wrote an introduction on the back of their business card.
My Karate is DestroyedA: I went to visit the teacher in Omiya, intending to find out whether or not holding someone down with a single thumb was just bragging or not. At the entrance I pulled out the introduction from the previous day, stated my purpose, and was shown into the dojo. There was a tatami covered floor, about eight tatami mats with a low ceiling, it was a very old-fashioned place. The teacher was there…
A: At that time I met a fortune teller on the grounds of the temple. I’ve forgotten how we met, but the title on that person’s business card said “Jujutsu Shihan”. Judo was in its prime at the time, and everybody adored “Sugata Sanshiro” (姿三四郎). In the novel Jujutsu was just something that had been weeded out by the new Budo, Judo, so I thought it was really old-fashioned. But that person said that with Jujutsu one could hold an opponent so they couldn’t move with just a single thumb.
Q: Ehh! Just one thumb?
A: I thought “That’s ridiculous!” too. So I said “I do Karate, so could you try applying that technique?”, and they said “Well then, I’ll introduce you to my teacher” and wrote an introduction on the back of their business card.
My Karate is DestroyedA: I went to visit the teacher in Omiya, intending to find out whether or not holding someone down with a single thumb was just bragging or not. At the entrance I pulled out the introduction from the previous day, stated my purpose, and was shown into the dojo. There was a tatami covered floor, about eight tatami mats with a low ceiling, it was a very old-fashioned place. The teacher was there…
Daito-ryu teacher Toshimi Maeda
and his Shiatsu teacher Haizan Minami
and his Shiatsu teacher Haizan Minami
Q: What was his name?
A: It was Ryuho Okuyama (奥山龍峰) of Hakko-ryu (八光流). I was told “I hear that you do Karate, so try hitting me as hard as you can”, but I don’t know what happened at the moment that I tried to strike him. Everything in front of me went dark, and it felt like fireworks were shooting out of my eyes. I shouted “it hurts, it hurts”, and I was thrown perfectly. (laughing) I understood later, but “Kote-gaeshi” had been applied to me. Now I teach Daito-ryu (大東流), and Okuyama Sensei was a student of the genius Bujutsu-ka of Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda. I became his student right then and there. (laughing)
Folding up a Judo StudentQ: What kind of an instructor was he?
A: He was of average weight and height with a round head and a mustache. I think that he was about fifty years old at the time. He even came to my wedding. He has already passed away, and has been succeeded by his son. He excelled at Shiatsu and combined that with Daito-ryu, to give birth to the new school of Hakko-ryu. He would advertise in popular magazines and was very publicly active.
Q: Were there many students?
A: Hmm, how many were there….? I think that there were very few real students, but people would come from all over the country to stay in that tiny dojo, and Shihans were produced very quickly.
Q: Very quickly?
A: It’s really impossible. He would also teach by correspondence. That made me a little suspicious, but there were some things that were amazing, too. We went to a seminar at a hot spring in Tochigi, and all of the participants were professional Budo-ka. A large man who had a seventh dan in Judo suddenly grabbed Sensei right in the middle of his lecture — maybe he was still feeling the drinks from the night before. (laughing) He grabbed the collar and sleeve of Sensei’s kimono, but when Sensei grabbed his forearm the man became unable to move. Then he folded the man up like a paper lantern. He screamed “Help me!” and Sensei finally released him, laughing uproariously. At the time I really admired the fact that his breathing was never disturbed, he held a folding fan in his other hand throughout the whole thing. After that I threw myself into the training more and more.
Hidemine Jibiki’s training in Jujutsu began from this time. Before long he would begin training with Tsunejiro Hosono (細野恒次郎) and Kotaro Yoshida (吉田幸太郎), both senior students of Sokaku Takeda.
Daito-ryu – the Ki World of SoftnessHidemine Jibiki encountered Jujutsu in his tenth year of Karate training. The techniques of Hakko-ryu Aiki-jujutsu’s Ryuho Okuyama have destroyed his Karate completely, and he finds himself drawn into a fascination with Jujutsu.
Shattered KarateQ: You trained in the “hard” world of Karate, and then leaped into the “soft” world of Aiki-jujutsu. Was there much that you found surprising?
A: I was really surprised. When a body that has been conditioned in the “hard” way is struck with a hard fist it doesn’t hurt very much, but when the techniques of the soft fist are applied it is really painful. It’s a pain that permeates your body. Further, when you are pinned you are unable to move.
Q: I heard that you had done quite a bit of training in Karate…
A: I would condition my fingertips by thrusting them into a drum filled with soy or fava beans and strike the makiwara before going to sleep, in the mornings I would condition myself in silence before leaving for work. I would strike myself with milk bottles to condition my bones – that doesn’t just condition the bones and muscles for hardness, it also imparts flexibility. When I was a translator at the American army base at Kizarazu I had a foreigner grab me by the lapels, and he was stunned when I kicked him in the chin. (laughing) Since I had confidence in myself I didn’t think that Okuyama Sensei would be able to do anything like holding me down immovable with just a single thumb! But he did it to me easily. I couldn’t understand how I could be beaten that badly. In that one instant I lost all my enthusiasm for doing Karate. (laughing) Conversely, I had to know how that had happened.
The dojo had a different atmosphere.Q: What were your impressions when you first encountered soft style training?
A: Since I had been doing hard style training for a long time I was stiff and tense, but when Okuyama Sensei entered it felt as if he had removed all of the power from his shoulders and his entire body was relaxed. I was impressed by the fact that the atmosphere in the dojo was so completely different. It was the complete opposite of the feeling of tension that filled the Karate dojo – I felt like a fish out of water.
Q: What was the training like?
A: At first I was taught by one of the senior students, starting with seated techniques. The techniques were applied from a seated position, but it hurt, it really hurt. (laughing) On the other hand, when Sensei entered the dojo the atmosphere would change abruptly and become very relaxed.
Ryuho Okuyama SenseiQ: Did Okuyama Sensei have a sense of humor?
A: He was someone who moved with the dignity of an instructor. Since he would also be smiling you would become able to relax. However, in a way, I think that he was a genius. He would travel around Japan teaching Hakko-ryu, spending just a short time, a week to ten days, in each region. He had also practiced Shiatsu for a long time, so he would teach that at the same time.
Q: This was a time without television, so did this get a big response?
A: I think so. It was right after the war, and there were many among the returning soldiers who had an acquaintance with Budo, so he was able to interest many people. Of course, the people who came were people with skills, so he wouldn’t have been able to do it without confidence in himself.
A: It was Ryuho Okuyama (奥山龍峰) of Hakko-ryu (八光流). I was told “I hear that you do Karate, so try hitting me as hard as you can”, but I don’t know what happened at the moment that I tried to strike him. Everything in front of me went dark, and it felt like fireworks were shooting out of my eyes. I shouted “it hurts, it hurts”, and I was thrown perfectly. (laughing) I understood later, but “Kote-gaeshi” had been applied to me. Now I teach Daito-ryu (大東流), and Okuyama Sensei was a student of the genius Bujutsu-ka of Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda. I became his student right then and there. (laughing)
Folding up a Judo StudentQ: What kind of an instructor was he?
A: He was of average weight and height with a round head and a mustache. I think that he was about fifty years old at the time. He even came to my wedding. He has already passed away, and has been succeeded by his son. He excelled at Shiatsu and combined that with Daito-ryu, to give birth to the new school of Hakko-ryu. He would advertise in popular magazines and was very publicly active.
Q: Were there many students?
A: Hmm, how many were there….? I think that there were very few real students, but people would come from all over the country to stay in that tiny dojo, and Shihans were produced very quickly.
Q: Very quickly?
A: It’s really impossible. He would also teach by correspondence. That made me a little suspicious, but there were some things that were amazing, too. We went to a seminar at a hot spring in Tochigi, and all of the participants were professional Budo-ka. A large man who had a seventh dan in Judo suddenly grabbed Sensei right in the middle of his lecture — maybe he was still feeling the drinks from the night before. (laughing) He grabbed the collar and sleeve of Sensei’s kimono, but when Sensei grabbed his forearm the man became unable to move. Then he folded the man up like a paper lantern. He screamed “Help me!” and Sensei finally released him, laughing uproariously. At the time I really admired the fact that his breathing was never disturbed, he held a folding fan in his other hand throughout the whole thing. After that I threw myself into the training more and more.
Hidemine Jibiki’s training in Jujutsu began from this time. Before long he would begin training with Tsunejiro Hosono (細野恒次郎) and Kotaro Yoshida (吉田幸太郎), both senior students of Sokaku Takeda.
Daito-ryu – the Ki World of SoftnessHidemine Jibiki encountered Jujutsu in his tenth year of Karate training. The techniques of Hakko-ryu Aiki-jujutsu’s Ryuho Okuyama have destroyed his Karate completely, and he finds himself drawn into a fascination with Jujutsu.
Shattered KarateQ: You trained in the “hard” world of Karate, and then leaped into the “soft” world of Aiki-jujutsu. Was there much that you found surprising?
A: I was really surprised. When a body that has been conditioned in the “hard” way is struck with a hard fist it doesn’t hurt very much, but when the techniques of the soft fist are applied it is really painful. It’s a pain that permeates your body. Further, when you are pinned you are unable to move.
Q: I heard that you had done quite a bit of training in Karate…
A: I would condition my fingertips by thrusting them into a drum filled with soy or fava beans and strike the makiwara before going to sleep, in the mornings I would condition myself in silence before leaving for work. I would strike myself with milk bottles to condition my bones – that doesn’t just condition the bones and muscles for hardness, it also imparts flexibility. When I was a translator at the American army base at Kizarazu I had a foreigner grab me by the lapels, and he was stunned when I kicked him in the chin. (laughing) Since I had confidence in myself I didn’t think that Okuyama Sensei would be able to do anything like holding me down immovable with just a single thumb! But he did it to me easily. I couldn’t understand how I could be beaten that badly. In that one instant I lost all my enthusiasm for doing Karate. (laughing) Conversely, I had to know how that had happened.
The dojo had a different atmosphere.Q: What were your impressions when you first encountered soft style training?
A: Since I had been doing hard style training for a long time I was stiff and tense, but when Okuyama Sensei entered it felt as if he had removed all of the power from his shoulders and his entire body was relaxed. I was impressed by the fact that the atmosphere in the dojo was so completely different. It was the complete opposite of the feeling of tension that filled the Karate dojo – I felt like a fish out of water.
Q: What was the training like?
A: At first I was taught by one of the senior students, starting with seated techniques. The techniques were applied from a seated position, but it hurt, it really hurt. (laughing) On the other hand, when Sensei entered the dojo the atmosphere would change abruptly and become very relaxed.
Ryuho Okuyama SenseiQ: Did Okuyama Sensei have a sense of humor?
A: He was someone who moved with the dignity of an instructor. Since he would also be smiling you would become able to relax. However, in a way, I think that he was a genius. He would travel around Japan teaching Hakko-ryu, spending just a short time, a week to ten days, in each region. He had also practiced Shiatsu for a long time, so he would teach that at the same time.
Q: This was a time without television, so did this get a big response?
A: I think so. It was right after the war, and there were many among the returning soldiers who had an acquaintance with Budo, so he was able to interest many people. Of course, the people who came were people with skills, so he wouldn’t have been able to do it without confidence in himself.
Tsunejiro Hosono SenseiQ: I’ve heard that you were taught by Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei after Okuyama Sensei, how did that come about?
A: When my companions and I got together it would naturally lead to discussions of Budo, and I came to understand that Hakko-ryu was an offshoot of a thing called Daito-ryu. I searched for it, wanting to gain knowledge of the source art. I found a book called “Aiki-no-jutsu” (合気之術) by Ichiro Tateyama (立山一郎) in a bookstore. That writer was was a student of Aikido’s Morihei Ueshiba, and wrote a book exploring the origins of Aiki. When I made inquires with the writer, he turned out to be a fascinating person, and introduced me to Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu’s Hosono Sensei. Further, Hosono Sensei was living in Koiwa, and my parents also lived in Koiwa, so I had the home court advantage.
Q: What kind of person was he?
A: When I called upon him he was dressed in a casual Kimono, and he looked like a wealthy merchant. He was a gentle and peaceful person. He seemed like he would be the chief of the general affairs department in a corporation, and it turned out that he had actually held that position in a major corporation. (laughing) He didn’t seem like what you would call a Budo-ka. He was highly educated, when he sent you postcards they would include classical Japanese poetry. At that time he had retired and was teaching Aiki at the same time that he was also teaching Judo. In the past Judo-ka would naturally receive certification as osteopaths (整骨師), so he was also teaching that. When I said “I’ve been doing Hakko-ryu” he said that I already had the foundation and training began.
Q: What was different from your previous training?
A: In Hakko-ryu there were many techniques that focused on finger pressure on the pressure points, but since Daito-ryu is composed of Aiki techniques he taught me Aiki.
What is Aiki?Q: Aiki is written as “matching Ki”, but what exactly is it?
A: Condensing “Ki” and focusing it. In terms of music, it is like matching tones. One focuses Ki at the place that the opponent is pressing down, when one does that the opponent becomes hooked onto the technique as if they are caught in the snare of a trap. One can say the same about Taijiquan. When I saw Taijiquan for the first time I thought “This is Aiki”.
Q: You started from the world of “Go” (“hard”), was it difficult for you to understand the world of “Ju” (“soft”)?
A: Ki is something that is inside the body, so it can’t be seen from outside. It is only when they are applied to you that one can first know the power of “Ki” techniques. It’s true for everybody, but you can’t master them just with intellectual understanding, at first you just don’t understand what to do. One cannot focus Ki when they have not developed their Ki, when one tries to relax they cannot. In the beginning I would become frustrated and use Karate, or give in to using power to throw at times when I was struggling… (laughing) At that time even Karate was quite rare, but now it has become really popular. (laughing)
Q: Was there a moment that you would describe as “eye-opening”?
A: I came to understand little by little. But when I watched Hosono Sensei’s techniques I just couldn’t understand. I would grab Sensei’s index finger with all of my strength, and when Sensei moved I would be tossed right away. It’s something that would be inconceivable in the world of strength. (laughing)
A: When my companions and I got together it would naturally lead to discussions of Budo, and I came to understand that Hakko-ryu was an offshoot of a thing called Daito-ryu. I searched for it, wanting to gain knowledge of the source art. I found a book called “Aiki-no-jutsu” (合気之術) by Ichiro Tateyama (立山一郎) in a bookstore. That writer was was a student of Aikido’s Morihei Ueshiba, and wrote a book exploring the origins of Aiki. When I made inquires with the writer, he turned out to be a fascinating person, and introduced me to Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu’s Hosono Sensei. Further, Hosono Sensei was living in Koiwa, and my parents also lived in Koiwa, so I had the home court advantage.
Q: What kind of person was he?
A: When I called upon him he was dressed in a casual Kimono, and he looked like a wealthy merchant. He was a gentle and peaceful person. He seemed like he would be the chief of the general affairs department in a corporation, and it turned out that he had actually held that position in a major corporation. (laughing) He didn’t seem like what you would call a Budo-ka. He was highly educated, when he sent you postcards they would include classical Japanese poetry. At that time he had retired and was teaching Aiki at the same time that he was also teaching Judo. In the past Judo-ka would naturally receive certification as osteopaths (整骨師), so he was also teaching that. When I said “I’ve been doing Hakko-ryu” he said that I already had the foundation and training began.
Q: What was different from your previous training?
A: In Hakko-ryu there were many techniques that focused on finger pressure on the pressure points, but since Daito-ryu is composed of Aiki techniques he taught me Aiki.
What is Aiki?Q: Aiki is written as “matching Ki”, but what exactly is it?
A: Condensing “Ki” and focusing it. In terms of music, it is like matching tones. One focuses Ki at the place that the opponent is pressing down, when one does that the opponent becomes hooked onto the technique as if they are caught in the snare of a trap. One can say the same about Taijiquan. When I saw Taijiquan for the first time I thought “This is Aiki”.
Q: You started from the world of “Go” (“hard”), was it difficult for you to understand the world of “Ju” (“soft”)?
A: Ki is something that is inside the body, so it can’t be seen from outside. It is only when they are applied to you that one can first know the power of “Ki” techniques. It’s true for everybody, but you can’t master them just with intellectual understanding, at first you just don’t understand what to do. One cannot focus Ki when they have not developed their Ki, when one tries to relax they cannot. In the beginning I would become frustrated and use Karate, or give in to using power to throw at times when I was struggling… (laughing) At that time even Karate was quite rare, but now it has become really popular. (laughing)
Q: Was there a moment that you would describe as “eye-opening”?
A: I came to understand little by little. But when I watched Hosono Sensei’s techniques I just couldn’t understand. I would grab Sensei’s index finger with all of my strength, and when Sensei moved I would be tossed right away. It’s something that would be inconceivable in the world of strength. (laughing)
Soft training calls out to a person.A: Because it was such a mystery, from dawn until dusk I couldn’t get it out of my head. In the end, it’s a matter of the quality of the tissue and the inside of the body, so one can’t understand from outside. In time I noticed that I was thrown because the joints were reversed, but I just kept researching – it’s not this, it’s not that. At that time my training partner was Kazuo Yokota Sensei (横田和男). We’d been training together since the Hakko-ryu days, and we’d go to the coffee shop to put our heads together. We’d grab each other’s forearms and hands – it’s not this, it’s not that… (laughing) In my Karate days I would train alone in silence, but this couldn’t be trained alone.
Q: It’s thought that there is something about soft training that calls out to a person…
A: Yes, that’s right. When applying techniques one must match their Ki to the Ki of the opponent. It must be that a connection from one person to the other is created there. We apply techniques on each other and cause pain, so when we are happy to act as partners for each other it must improve our chemistry with each other. (laughing)
Q: It’s thought that there is something about soft training that calls out to a person…
A: Yes, that’s right. When applying techniques one must match their Ki to the Ki of the opponent. It must be that a connection from one person to the other is created there. We apply techniques on each other and cause pain, so when we are happy to act as partners for each other it must improve our chemistry with each other. (laughing)
Hidemine Jibiki – Hakko-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo, and “The Road to Softness”, Part 2
June 7, 2014
Starting with Shotokan Karate Founder Gichin Funakoshi, Hidemine Jibiki (地曳秀峰) has a resume that is as varied as it is impressive. Born in 1927, his studies progressed from Okinawan Karate through Japanese Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu to Chinese internal martial arts and more.
This is the second part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, including some anecdotes of Daito-ryu Chuku-no-so Sokaku Takeda. You may want to read Part 1 of this interview before reading this section.
This is the second part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, including some anecdotes of Daito-ryu Chuku-no-so Sokaku Takeda. You may want to read Part 1 of this interview before reading this section.
Hosono Dojo Shihan-dai
In Hidemine Jibiki’s Budo life training in Aiki Budo becomes even more complete through Tsunejiro Hosono’s instruction. Not only the content of his technique, but also his very way of thinking undergoes a transformation. It is in this period that the the first period of Hidemine’s true Budo training, “The Road To Softness”, begins to flower.
Q: Could you speak a little bit more about your time with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei?
A: Hosono Sensei taught Judo as well as Aiki Budo at his dojo after he retired . He would treat people as an osteopath he would teach that as well. Because he was such a busy person I would work as the Shihan-dai at the dojo on Friday evenings and Saturday. This was around the time that Mr. Kondo, who is now the Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Soke-dairi (大東流合気柔術宗家代理) joined the dojo. He was still a student at the Chiba Institute of Technology (千葉工大), and I gave him his first training. I still have a picture of us together!
Q: At the time Tomiko Sensei (Hidemine Jibiki’s wife) was also training together with you.
A: Many people stop training after they marry, so I needed her understanding in order to continue. Happily she had an interest in it….
In Hidemine Jibiki’s Budo life training in Aiki Budo becomes even more complete through Tsunejiro Hosono’s instruction. Not only the content of his technique, but also his very way of thinking undergoes a transformation. It is in this period that the the first period of Hidemine’s true Budo training, “The Road To Softness”, begins to flower.
Q: Could you speak a little bit more about your time with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei?
A: Hosono Sensei taught Judo as well as Aiki Budo at his dojo after he retired . He would treat people as an osteopath he would teach that as well. Because he was such a busy person I would work as the Shihan-dai at the dojo on Friday evenings and Saturday. This was around the time that Mr. Kondo, who is now the Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Soke-dairi (大東流合気柔術宗家代理) joined the dojo. He was still a student at the Chiba Institute of Technology (千葉工大), and I gave him his first training. I still have a picture of us together!
Q: At the time Tomiko Sensei (Hidemine Jibiki’s wife) was also training together with you.
A: Many people stop training after they marry, so I needed her understanding in order to continue. Happily she had an interest in it….
Q: What was your impression of Hosono Sensei?
A: He was an educated person who followed the dual paths of literary and martial arts (“Bunbu Ryodo” / 文武両道). A warrior from the past, he had the feeling of a feudal lord’s chief retainer, and a mild disposition. When it came to technique he was a professional Budo-ka. One time there was a man who, boasting of his skill in Karate, suddenly come in with a kick. Without changing his expression, Sensei reversed his leg in a flash. I thought then that he was a real master.
Organizing an Aikido Club at the American Army BaseQ: What about on weekdays?
A: I was at the American military base in Kisarazu, so I got permission from Hosono Sensei to open a branch dojo there. I registered with the Kisarazu Budo Renmei (木更津武道連盟) and then taught there after work.
Q: Was there a lot of Budo in the Kisarazu area?
A: Since it was an imperial fiefdom under the direct control of the shogunate the shogun’s direct retainers had villas there, and it retained the atmosphere of old Edo.
Q: What kind of students did you have at the branch dojo?
A: That was the time of the Vietnam War. Most of them were in the Navy, and scheduled for deployment to Vietnam. It was said they were the strongest among the three services, all of them were tough young men of 180cm or more. They had to fight in the front lines, so it was meaningless unless the techniques could actually be used. A person who couldn’t show real power when tested by the Americans would never be recognized as an instructor. At first they would come at me with incredible momentum, but I would toss them without reservation. (laughing) Anyway, since I was so much smaller than they were they would be really shocked when that happened. (laughing) I taught them mainly close quarters combat. It really taught me a lot, the enemy was the enemy, so half-baked techniques wouldn’t work.
Q: Do you remember any of the students?
A: There was a champion body-builder. He was a farmer, so he converted a barn and four of his family would train there. During the winter snows the four of them would lift up trucks to shovel away the snow from under them. Because this was a man who was confident in his strength, at first when he watched practice he would make fun of it half the time – “Instead of putting them face down why don’t you just grab them and throw them?” – I got tired of his attitude and said “If that’s what you think then try and grab this!” and had him grab my lapels. When he tried to hold on with strength I threw him and held him down so hard that he couldn’t even speak. (laughing) Because between strength and Ki, Ki is always stronger. Then, on the next day he came back changed into a completely different person and begged for teaching. (laughing) After that he applied himself regularly to the training with great enthusiasm. After returning to the United States he opened a dojo. He sent me an 8mm film, the students were bowing from seiza and he appeared in a hakama, just as I taught him. (laughing) There was also a person who was the U.S. National lightweight boxing champion. He didn’t tell me that until the very end, but then I realized why he’d been able to strike so quickly! (laughing) Even then, when one applies Aiki techniques everybody is the same. It must have been the same for him as it was when I was thrown by Okuyama Sensei, it must have been a complete mystery. Anyway, at the time I often thought that it was a good thing that I was doing Daito-ryu Aikido. That is, when I watched Budoka in other types of Budo I would often see them struggling and hard pressed to handle their large foreign opponents.
The Self Defense Forces Aikido Club
Q: Were you asked to teach the Self Defense Forces?
A: The Kisarazu Base was used jointly by the American military and the Self Defense Forces. This was the time of the Beiheiren (Translator’s Note: べ平連 – the most prominent anti-Vietnam peace movement in Japan), so the armory was often a target and there were some fatalities. The students would join hands and sit-in in front of the main Self Defense Forces gate, and they came with the mass-media so that they couldn’t just be cleared away. It was a time when the Self Defense Forces eyed the mass-media as an enemy. When injuries occurred among the students it would become the top story on page one of the newspapers. That was why I received a request from the Self Defense Forces to teach a method for clearing them away without causing injuries.
Q: Does such a method exist?
A: It’s simple if one uses soft techniques! Techniques from Hakko-ryu proved quite useful at that time. No matter how hard they struggled to remain seated, one could just smile and grasp their pressure points and the students would become unable to remain sitting. (laughing) Then you could forcibly remove them. I also taught them things like techniques for subduing an opponent wielding an iron pipe and methods for forcing someone to walk in front of you while you escort them away.
Q: The person being escorted away walks in front?
A: From the outside it looks as if the student is walking in front and the officer is following along behind. (laughing) I still have the thank you cards from that time. I also have thank you cards from the American military.
What is first class Budo?Q: Your teachers, Shotokan Karate’s Gichin Funakoshi Sensei, Hakko-ryu Jujutsu’s Ryu Okuyama Sensei, Daito-ryu Aiki Budo’s Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and finally Wang Shujin, were all first class Budoka. Are there some points that all of them held in common?
A: Firstly, all of them were educated people. Funakoshi Sensei was a teacher, and Yoshida Sensei graduated from an Imperial university, was an editor at the Hokkaido Shimbun, and could speak fluently in English. The others were also highly educated people. The scholar Confucius from the Chunqiu Period was also a Bujutsuka, and his sword-work has been transmitted even to the present day. Japanese warriors are the same. Education and first class Budo were required to ensure the family succession. Each of the teachers were calm, polite and dutiful common sense men. Most of all, they were each teachers of high quality.
Q: The types of Bujutsuka who appear in the various MMA (格闘技) magazines appear to be somewhat coarse…
A: The image of Bujutsuka as coarse is something that was invented by the mass-media. A Bujutsuka is someone who has mastered techniques for protecting their bodies from violent people. Bujutsu is something that is only used for the protection of society or of one’s family.
A change in mindsetQ: Are there people who come to study that are attracted to MMA?
A: MMA is a sport for entertainment, it is not Budo. The proof of this is the division into classes. If a lightweight and a heavyweight were paired together there would be nothing to show. Of course the heavyweight will win. Budo is a technique for a small person to control a large person. From the beginning it has a different quality. However long one trains, if one’s body is stiff they will not be able to master the techniques. Unless there is a change in mindset there will be no technical progress, only frustration. Budo is something alien to MMA. Fortunately, in my dojo even those who are violent at first become calm as they continue their training. That is because as they continue their training they have no choice but to change their mindset. (laughing)
Meeting Kotaro Yoshida SenseiQ: You became acquainted with Kotaro Yoshida Sensei through an introduction from Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei, how did that come about?
A: At the time I was functioning as Hosono Sensei’s Shihan-dai, and I think that is why he introduced me to Yoshida Sensei. At first there was no particular reason for the introduction, but after Hosono Sensei passed away it turned out to extremely helpful to have made the acquaintanceship.
Q: Where was Yoshida Sensei living?
A: In Hitachi City in Ibaraki Prefecture. I always visited him together with Yokota Sensei, but since I was living in Kisarazu it was difficult to go visit. In one day I would go into Tokyo, change at Akihabara and head towards Hitachi, then I’d have to change trains again once I got to Hitachi. When I look back now I think that I must really have been passionate. (laughing) Well, after that if I heard that I could learn a good technique I’d even go to Taiwan or Hong Kong… (laughing)
Q: What kind of person was he?
A: He was intelligent enough to be the editor-in-chief of the Hokkaido Shimbun, but he had the appearance of an ancient warrior. At that time he was around eighty years old, and paralyzed on one side, there were many shuriken in round pencil holders at the head of his bed. He always had an iron fan with him, and when he was healthier five Judoka approached him at a Daito-ryu Jujutsu demonstration and asked him to try applying Aiki to them – when he said “Well, in that case” and took out his iron fan they all fell silent. (laughing) Sensei’s era was a time when Budoka would give each other a try, so Sensei was the one who was tested. There were sumo wrestlers who came to ask what kind of a thing Aiki-jujutsu was, and when he said “Well, OK” and threw a shuriken into a persimmon tree in the garden they shut-up and went home. (laughing)
Q: What was the training like?
A: I had been taught enough Aiki techniques by Hosono Sensei, and I was in the period in which it was up to my own personal research. From Yoshida Sensei I learned about Daito-ryu’s way of thinking and the mindset of the warrior. When Sokaku Takeda left for his Musha shugyo (Translator’s Note: 武者修行 – a samurai pilgrimage to hone warrior skills) Sensei attended him as his assistant. He loved to be asked to talk about Sokaku.
A: He was an educated person who followed the dual paths of literary and martial arts (“Bunbu Ryodo” / 文武両道). A warrior from the past, he had the feeling of a feudal lord’s chief retainer, and a mild disposition. When it came to technique he was a professional Budo-ka. One time there was a man who, boasting of his skill in Karate, suddenly come in with a kick. Without changing his expression, Sensei reversed his leg in a flash. I thought then that he was a real master.
Organizing an Aikido Club at the American Army BaseQ: What about on weekdays?
A: I was at the American military base in Kisarazu, so I got permission from Hosono Sensei to open a branch dojo there. I registered with the Kisarazu Budo Renmei (木更津武道連盟) and then taught there after work.
Q: Was there a lot of Budo in the Kisarazu area?
A: Since it was an imperial fiefdom under the direct control of the shogunate the shogun’s direct retainers had villas there, and it retained the atmosphere of old Edo.
Q: What kind of students did you have at the branch dojo?
A: That was the time of the Vietnam War. Most of them were in the Navy, and scheduled for deployment to Vietnam. It was said they were the strongest among the three services, all of them were tough young men of 180cm or more. They had to fight in the front lines, so it was meaningless unless the techniques could actually be used. A person who couldn’t show real power when tested by the Americans would never be recognized as an instructor. At first they would come at me with incredible momentum, but I would toss them without reservation. (laughing) Anyway, since I was so much smaller than they were they would be really shocked when that happened. (laughing) I taught them mainly close quarters combat. It really taught me a lot, the enemy was the enemy, so half-baked techniques wouldn’t work.
Q: Do you remember any of the students?
A: There was a champion body-builder. He was a farmer, so he converted a barn and four of his family would train there. During the winter snows the four of them would lift up trucks to shovel away the snow from under them. Because this was a man who was confident in his strength, at first when he watched practice he would make fun of it half the time – “Instead of putting them face down why don’t you just grab them and throw them?” – I got tired of his attitude and said “If that’s what you think then try and grab this!” and had him grab my lapels. When he tried to hold on with strength I threw him and held him down so hard that he couldn’t even speak. (laughing) Because between strength and Ki, Ki is always stronger. Then, on the next day he came back changed into a completely different person and begged for teaching. (laughing) After that he applied himself regularly to the training with great enthusiasm. After returning to the United States he opened a dojo. He sent me an 8mm film, the students were bowing from seiza and he appeared in a hakama, just as I taught him. (laughing) There was also a person who was the U.S. National lightweight boxing champion. He didn’t tell me that until the very end, but then I realized why he’d been able to strike so quickly! (laughing) Even then, when one applies Aiki techniques everybody is the same. It must have been the same for him as it was when I was thrown by Okuyama Sensei, it must have been a complete mystery. Anyway, at the time I often thought that it was a good thing that I was doing Daito-ryu Aikido. That is, when I watched Budoka in other types of Budo I would often see them struggling and hard pressed to handle their large foreign opponents.
The Self Defense Forces Aikido Club
Q: Were you asked to teach the Self Defense Forces?
A: The Kisarazu Base was used jointly by the American military and the Self Defense Forces. This was the time of the Beiheiren (Translator’s Note: べ平連 – the most prominent anti-Vietnam peace movement in Japan), so the armory was often a target and there were some fatalities. The students would join hands and sit-in in front of the main Self Defense Forces gate, and they came with the mass-media so that they couldn’t just be cleared away. It was a time when the Self Defense Forces eyed the mass-media as an enemy. When injuries occurred among the students it would become the top story on page one of the newspapers. That was why I received a request from the Self Defense Forces to teach a method for clearing them away without causing injuries.
Q: Does such a method exist?
A: It’s simple if one uses soft techniques! Techniques from Hakko-ryu proved quite useful at that time. No matter how hard they struggled to remain seated, one could just smile and grasp their pressure points and the students would become unable to remain sitting. (laughing) Then you could forcibly remove them. I also taught them things like techniques for subduing an opponent wielding an iron pipe and methods for forcing someone to walk in front of you while you escort them away.
Q: The person being escorted away walks in front?
A: From the outside it looks as if the student is walking in front and the officer is following along behind. (laughing) I still have the thank you cards from that time. I also have thank you cards from the American military.
What is first class Budo?Q: Your teachers, Shotokan Karate’s Gichin Funakoshi Sensei, Hakko-ryu Jujutsu’s Ryu Okuyama Sensei, Daito-ryu Aiki Budo’s Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and finally Wang Shujin, were all first class Budoka. Are there some points that all of them held in common?
A: Firstly, all of them were educated people. Funakoshi Sensei was a teacher, and Yoshida Sensei graduated from an Imperial university, was an editor at the Hokkaido Shimbun, and could speak fluently in English. The others were also highly educated people. The scholar Confucius from the Chunqiu Period was also a Bujutsuka, and his sword-work has been transmitted even to the present day. Japanese warriors are the same. Education and first class Budo were required to ensure the family succession. Each of the teachers were calm, polite and dutiful common sense men. Most of all, they were each teachers of high quality.
Q: The types of Bujutsuka who appear in the various MMA (格闘技) magazines appear to be somewhat coarse…
A: The image of Bujutsuka as coarse is something that was invented by the mass-media. A Bujutsuka is someone who has mastered techniques for protecting their bodies from violent people. Bujutsu is something that is only used for the protection of society or of one’s family.
A change in mindsetQ: Are there people who come to study that are attracted to MMA?
A: MMA is a sport for entertainment, it is not Budo. The proof of this is the division into classes. If a lightweight and a heavyweight were paired together there would be nothing to show. Of course the heavyweight will win. Budo is a technique for a small person to control a large person. From the beginning it has a different quality. However long one trains, if one’s body is stiff they will not be able to master the techniques. Unless there is a change in mindset there will be no technical progress, only frustration. Budo is something alien to MMA. Fortunately, in my dojo even those who are violent at first become calm as they continue their training. That is because as they continue their training they have no choice but to change their mindset. (laughing)
Meeting Kotaro Yoshida SenseiQ: You became acquainted with Kotaro Yoshida Sensei through an introduction from Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei, how did that come about?
A: At the time I was functioning as Hosono Sensei’s Shihan-dai, and I think that is why he introduced me to Yoshida Sensei. At first there was no particular reason for the introduction, but after Hosono Sensei passed away it turned out to extremely helpful to have made the acquaintanceship.
Q: Where was Yoshida Sensei living?
A: In Hitachi City in Ibaraki Prefecture. I always visited him together with Yokota Sensei, but since I was living in Kisarazu it was difficult to go visit. In one day I would go into Tokyo, change at Akihabara and head towards Hitachi, then I’d have to change trains again once I got to Hitachi. When I look back now I think that I must really have been passionate. (laughing) Well, after that if I heard that I could learn a good technique I’d even go to Taiwan or Hong Kong… (laughing)
Q: What kind of person was he?
A: He was intelligent enough to be the editor-in-chief of the Hokkaido Shimbun, but he had the appearance of an ancient warrior. At that time he was around eighty years old, and paralyzed on one side, there were many shuriken in round pencil holders at the head of his bed. He always had an iron fan with him, and when he was healthier five Judoka approached him at a Daito-ryu Jujutsu demonstration and asked him to try applying Aiki to them – when he said “Well, in that case” and took out his iron fan they all fell silent. (laughing) Sensei’s era was a time when Budoka would give each other a try, so Sensei was the one who was tested. There were sumo wrestlers who came to ask what kind of a thing Aiki-jujutsu was, and when he said “Well, OK” and threw a shuriken into a persimmon tree in the garden they shut-up and went home. (laughing)
Q: What was the training like?
A: I had been taught enough Aiki techniques by Hosono Sensei, and I was in the period in which it was up to my own personal research. From Yoshida Sensei I learned about Daito-ryu’s way of thinking and the mindset of the warrior. When Sokaku Takeda left for his Musha shugyo (Translator’s Note: 武者修行 – a samurai pilgrimage to hone warrior skills) Sensei attended him as his assistant. He loved to be asked to talk about Sokaku.
Sokaku and Throwing Bronze CoinsQ: Could you tell us one of those stories?
A: There was a time that he stopped by Hamamatsu, and Sokaku met a man who was throwing 2-sen coins into a pine tree. A 2-sen coin was about as large as the current 500 yen coins are, and they were being swallowed up by the pine tree. Sokaku, who had practiced with shuriken, was impressed and said “Please allow me to study with you”. In his childhood the man was struck down with polio and became unable to move. His older brother became worried about his lack of exercise, so he changed a 1-yen coin into 50 2-sen coins and told him to throw them at a post. At first they would just bounce off, but after a time they started to sink into the post. The man said that it was just something that he did for exercise, so it wasn’t anything that he could teach anybody and refused Sokaku. It was said that this story moved Sokaku greatly, and that he threw himself into shuriken training with great intensity.
The old woman’s skewer throwing and the thieving cat.A: There are more stories concerning shuriken. This is a story of the time that Sokaku stopped for a rest in a tea house at a ferry crossing during a trip to Shikoku. This tea house was famous for skewered broiled eel, and an old woman was washing the bamboo skewers at the washing place. One by one, as she finished washing them she would throw them behind her without turning around. Although she never looked at the bamboo bag behind her, the bamboo skewers were stacked up neatly on the bottom.
Q: Ehh! Is that true?
A: Sokaku was impressed by this, an began to practice throwing shuriken under his sleeves and over his shoulders. This was a journey for Budo training, so he could not neglect his own training even while he was teaching. In time, Sokaku’s party came to the Tosa area of Shikoku. Sokaku bought a bonito, and saying that he would treat them to bonito tataki, started to cut it into into three pieces. As he lined up the pieces of fish on a plate beside him a thieving cat snuck up quietly and ran away with the meat. In an instant, Sokaku threw the knife behind him under his sleeve and there was a screech that cut off right in the middle. It is said that Sokuku said “Rude fellow!”. (laughing)
Warriors Develop HokkaidoQ: I’ve heard that Yoshida Sensei was the person who introduced Mr. Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku.
A: Mr. Ueshiba is a person who learned Aiki-jujutsu from Sokaku, and Sensei was his guarantor. Mr. Ueshiba was a man of great strength, it’s said that he was able to lift up Sokaku while Sokaku was standing on the two palms of his hands in his magnolia wood geta (wooden sandals). He was heavily conditioned from clearing land. The majority of the members in the development group were warriors, and Mr. Ueshiba was from a warrior family. After the Meiji Restoration the warriors attached to the Bakufu at the end of the Edo Period needed some place to go, so they threw themselves into the development groups. The first development groups were all warriors, and when they turned to the group at the morning roll call it sounded like something from the military. (laughing)
Q: In other words, there was a rich Budo environment in Hokkaido?
A: Yes, that’s right. Sokaku would travel around the areas of Hokkaido teaching, with his hub in Abashiri. That must have been how he made the acquaintance of Yoshida Sensei, who was editor-in-chief of the Hokkaido Shimbun. It may be that he was the subject of an interview. Sensei came from a warrior family, vassals of the Miharu Domain (三春藩), which was near Aizu. Sokaku was from the Aizu Domain, so it must have been that they felt a connection.
Knowing the mindset of the warriorA: Sokaku would always come up clip clopping in his geta when he came to Sensei’s place. He’d call out “Yoshida-kun, you there?” in his Aizu accent. (laughing) One winter he heated up the bath for Sokaku. The door was a little bit open, but when Sensei went to shut the door, fearing a draft, Sokaku went mad with rage. “If you shut the door how will I know when enemies come? Is this the start of a conspiracy against my life!?!” – said Sokaku. Sensei was completely taken aback. In other words, no matter what the circumstances, Sokaku was always prepared for war. This is “When a man goes out he must think that he has at least seven enemies”.
A: There was a time that he stopped by Hamamatsu, and Sokaku met a man who was throwing 2-sen coins into a pine tree. A 2-sen coin was about as large as the current 500 yen coins are, and they were being swallowed up by the pine tree. Sokaku, who had practiced with shuriken, was impressed and said “Please allow me to study with you”. In his childhood the man was struck down with polio and became unable to move. His older brother became worried about his lack of exercise, so he changed a 1-yen coin into 50 2-sen coins and told him to throw them at a post. At first they would just bounce off, but after a time they started to sink into the post. The man said that it was just something that he did for exercise, so it wasn’t anything that he could teach anybody and refused Sokaku. It was said that this story moved Sokaku greatly, and that he threw himself into shuriken training with great intensity.
The old woman’s skewer throwing and the thieving cat.A: There are more stories concerning shuriken. This is a story of the time that Sokaku stopped for a rest in a tea house at a ferry crossing during a trip to Shikoku. This tea house was famous for skewered broiled eel, and an old woman was washing the bamboo skewers at the washing place. One by one, as she finished washing them she would throw them behind her without turning around. Although she never looked at the bamboo bag behind her, the bamboo skewers were stacked up neatly on the bottom.
Q: Ehh! Is that true?
A: Sokaku was impressed by this, an began to practice throwing shuriken under his sleeves and over his shoulders. This was a journey for Budo training, so he could not neglect his own training even while he was teaching. In time, Sokaku’s party came to the Tosa area of Shikoku. Sokaku bought a bonito, and saying that he would treat them to bonito tataki, started to cut it into into three pieces. As he lined up the pieces of fish on a plate beside him a thieving cat snuck up quietly and ran away with the meat. In an instant, Sokaku threw the knife behind him under his sleeve and there was a screech that cut off right in the middle. It is said that Sokuku said “Rude fellow!”. (laughing)
Warriors Develop HokkaidoQ: I’ve heard that Yoshida Sensei was the person who introduced Mr. Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku.
A: Mr. Ueshiba is a person who learned Aiki-jujutsu from Sokaku, and Sensei was his guarantor. Mr. Ueshiba was a man of great strength, it’s said that he was able to lift up Sokaku while Sokaku was standing on the two palms of his hands in his magnolia wood geta (wooden sandals). He was heavily conditioned from clearing land. The majority of the members in the development group were warriors, and Mr. Ueshiba was from a warrior family. After the Meiji Restoration the warriors attached to the Bakufu at the end of the Edo Period needed some place to go, so they threw themselves into the development groups. The first development groups were all warriors, and when they turned to the group at the morning roll call it sounded like something from the military. (laughing)
Q: In other words, there was a rich Budo environment in Hokkaido?
A: Yes, that’s right. Sokaku would travel around the areas of Hokkaido teaching, with his hub in Abashiri. That must have been how he made the acquaintance of Yoshida Sensei, who was editor-in-chief of the Hokkaido Shimbun. It may be that he was the subject of an interview. Sensei came from a warrior family, vassals of the Miharu Domain (三春藩), which was near Aizu. Sokaku was from the Aizu Domain, so it must have been that they felt a connection.
Knowing the mindset of the warriorA: Sokaku would always come up clip clopping in his geta when he came to Sensei’s place. He’d call out “Yoshida-kun, you there?” in his Aizu accent. (laughing) One winter he heated up the bath for Sokaku. The door was a little bit open, but when Sensei went to shut the door, fearing a draft, Sokaku went mad with rage. “If you shut the door how will I know when enemies come? Is this the start of a conspiracy against my life!?!” – said Sokaku. Sensei was completely taken aback. In other words, no matter what the circumstances, Sokaku was always prepared for war. This is “When a man goes out he must think that he has at least seven enemies”.
Q: That’s right out of the Sengoku Period!
A: It’s an interesting story, but it also contains some very useful points concerning the mindset of a warrior. In Hosono Dojo we were repeatedly instructed in the behavior of the warrior. We were taught not to tread on the seam of the tatami in order to avoid hidden swords, and not to open sliding screens suddenly. We also practiced “tatami-gaeshi” (“tatami flipping”), where one stands the tatami up by inserting their thumb in the seam in order to use it as a shield against arrows. When warriors ascended to the castle they would sit for the entire day, but they would never cross their legs (胡座). They would sit in seiza without even crossing their big toes. If one does this then they can straighten their big toes in and instant and stand up right away. Also, there was “Orishiki” (折敷), a way of sitting with the left knee up. This was a way of sitting in armor. The things that I learned at Hosono Dojo I explored in even greater depth with Yoshida Sensei. His stories of Sokaku’s Musha Shugyo, especially the stories of “dojo storming”, were extremely informative.
Q: What kinds of stories?
A: When he went “dojo storming” the head of the dojo wouldn’t come out in the beginning. Those below would come out one after the other, and while that was happening the head of the dojo would observe Sokaku’s skills from the shadows. At that time he would not use secret techniques, he would deal with each opponent and hide his techniques. After the Shihan’s representatives were finished the head of the dojo would finally emerge to take up the contest. Then he would use a secret technique and topple his opponent with a single blow. It seems that Sokaku would open their eyes with a blow. When he was victorious he would take them in the back “That’s one sign board…”, a gift envelope would come out and there’d be a drinking party – but they wouldn’t be allowed to touch any of the food on the table. One can’t be too careful! (laughing)
Q: Was there a wide variety of weapons?
A: It was a Bujutsu that originated in Kenjutsu. There is an extremely important technique in Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, and in “Hiki-otoshi” (引き落とし) one can catch a glimpse of it. This is a technique in which one slips the sword strike, reverses the sword, then cuts the carotid artery – this is a method of body control based upon slipping past the opponent. Simply assisting without grasping, making use of the opponent’s momentum, is “Hiki-otoshi”. There are also a wide variety of weapons methods – long sword, short sword, shuriken, kusari-gama, kusari-fundo, small bow and more.
Searching for self-defense techniquesA: I have constantly searched for the best “self-defense”. I didn’t learn Aiki Budo because I wanted to master it, I had a passion for it because it excelled at self-defense techniques. When I became interested in what happens with a weapon in the hand I studied Jodo, and I studied Taijiquan because the techniques were effective at the moment of contact. In any case, when I heard of a good instructor I would go learn from them, no matter where they were. (laughing)
A: It’s an interesting story, but it also contains some very useful points concerning the mindset of a warrior. In Hosono Dojo we were repeatedly instructed in the behavior of the warrior. We were taught not to tread on the seam of the tatami in order to avoid hidden swords, and not to open sliding screens suddenly. We also practiced “tatami-gaeshi” (“tatami flipping”), where one stands the tatami up by inserting their thumb in the seam in order to use it as a shield against arrows. When warriors ascended to the castle they would sit for the entire day, but they would never cross their legs (胡座). They would sit in seiza without even crossing their big toes. If one does this then they can straighten their big toes in and instant and stand up right away. Also, there was “Orishiki” (折敷), a way of sitting with the left knee up. This was a way of sitting in armor. The things that I learned at Hosono Dojo I explored in even greater depth with Yoshida Sensei. His stories of Sokaku’s Musha Shugyo, especially the stories of “dojo storming”, were extremely informative.
Q: What kinds of stories?
A: When he went “dojo storming” the head of the dojo wouldn’t come out in the beginning. Those below would come out one after the other, and while that was happening the head of the dojo would observe Sokaku’s skills from the shadows. At that time he would not use secret techniques, he would deal with each opponent and hide his techniques. After the Shihan’s representatives were finished the head of the dojo would finally emerge to take up the contest. Then he would use a secret technique and topple his opponent with a single blow. It seems that Sokaku would open their eyes with a blow. When he was victorious he would take them in the back “That’s one sign board…”, a gift envelope would come out and there’d be a drinking party – but they wouldn’t be allowed to touch any of the food on the table. One can’t be too careful! (laughing)
Q: Was there a wide variety of weapons?
A: It was a Bujutsu that originated in Kenjutsu. There is an extremely important technique in Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, and in “Hiki-otoshi” (引き落とし) one can catch a glimpse of it. This is a technique in which one slips the sword strike, reverses the sword, then cuts the carotid artery – this is a method of body control based upon slipping past the opponent. Simply assisting without grasping, making use of the opponent’s momentum, is “Hiki-otoshi”. There are also a wide variety of weapons methods – long sword, short sword, shuriken, kusari-gama, kusari-fundo, small bow and more.
Searching for self-defense techniquesA: I have constantly searched for the best “self-defense”. I didn’t learn Aiki Budo because I wanted to master it, I had a passion for it because it excelled at self-defense techniques. When I became interested in what happens with a weapon in the hand I studied Jodo, and I studied Taijiquan because the techniques were effective at the moment of contact. In any case, when I heard of a good instructor I would go learn from them, no matter where they were. (laughing)
Hidemine Jibiki – Hakko-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo, and “The Road to Softness”, Part 3
June 22, 2014
Born in 1927, Hidemine Jibiki (地曳秀峰) started training in Okinawan Karate then moved on to Japanese Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu. In this section of a four part interview he discusses meeting Wang Shujin, a noted Chinese teacher of Bagua Zhang, Taiji Quan, and Xingyi Quan. Wang was also a leader in a Taoist Sect called the Constant Path (I Kuan Tao).
Wang Shu-Jin had some points of interaction with the Aikido community through American Aikido student Terry Dobson, who trained with him in Japan. Here are two versions of his meeting with Kazuo Chiba, the first from Chiba himself, and the second from Terry Dobson via Ellis Amdur.
Kazuo Chiba’s Version:
Q: …As we are talking about challenges would you mind telling me about your confrontation with Mr Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?
Chiba: Who told you about this … Mr Cottier perhaps?
Q: Perhaps I’d better not tell …
Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960’s, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him. I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him. They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido.
Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me.
So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) … his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.
Terry Dobson’s version (as told by Ellis Amdur):
I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn’t know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.
Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught TAIJIQUAN. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry’s direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, “here you’d have all these startched Japanese in their crisp keiko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he’d start doing impossible slow TAIJIQUAN and he’d turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he’d challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he’d let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he’d just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he’d become, shall we say, active.”
Terry stated to me, (I’m quoting as best as I can remember) “the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, ‘sure, do what you want’ but they wouldn’t let up so I said, “why don’t you come and check him out for yourself.” So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, ‘come here boy.’ Seriously, Wang’s over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he’s concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it’s timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba’s arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he’s shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang’s wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don’t know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang’s doing something to him with one hand and he’s screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and says, “You’ve got a little chi, why don’t you come back when you acquire more?” Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, “you want to try.” They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I’m concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang’s feet.
This is the third part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, in which he discusses meeting the famous Chinese martial artist Wang Shujin. You may want to read Part 1 | Part 2, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder Ryuho Okuyama, before reading this section.
Wang Shu-Jin had some points of interaction with the Aikido community through American Aikido student Terry Dobson, who trained with him in Japan. Here are two versions of his meeting with Kazuo Chiba, the first from Chiba himself, and the second from Terry Dobson via Ellis Amdur.
Kazuo Chiba’s Version:
Q: …As we are talking about challenges would you mind telling me about your confrontation with Mr Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?
Chiba: Who told you about this … Mr Cottier perhaps?
Q: Perhaps I’d better not tell …
Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960’s, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him. I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him. They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido.
Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me.
So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) … his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.
Terry Dobson’s version (as told by Ellis Amdur):
I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn’t know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.
Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught TAIJIQUAN. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry’s direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, “here you’d have all these startched Japanese in their crisp keiko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he’d start doing impossible slow TAIJIQUAN and he’d turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he’d challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he’d let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he’d just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he’d become, shall we say, active.”
Terry stated to me, (I’m quoting as best as I can remember) “the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, ‘sure, do what you want’ but they wouldn’t let up so I said, “why don’t you come and check him out for yourself.” So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, ‘come here boy.’ Seriously, Wang’s over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he’s concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it’s timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba’s arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he’s shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang’s wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don’t know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang’s doing something to him with one hand and he’s screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and says, “You’ve got a little chi, why don’t you come back when you acquire more?” Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, “you want to try.” They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I’m concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang’s feet.
This is the third part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki, in which he discusses meeting the famous Chinese martial artist Wang Shujin. You may want to read Part 1 | Part 2, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder Ryuho Okuyama, before reading this section.
Meeting Wang Shujin RoshiHidemine Jibiki was doing nothing but Aikido shugyo, day in and day out, but had became aware through the newspapers that a giant of Chinese Kenpo was coming to Japan. This was his chance to make the acquaintance of Wang Shujin Roshi.
Encountering the Chinese Martial ArtsQ: Why did you first develop an interest in the Chinese martial arts?
A: It was at a used bookshop in Kanda in my mid-twenties. I was employed at an American military base as a translator, so I went looking for books in English that would be useful to my work. There were pictures with training scenes of Chinese military advisors in the English magazine “Life”, and I saw them doing some unusual types of martial arts. I think that it was something that had been published in America during the war. Someone in the Allied occupation forces (after the war Japan was temporarily controlled by American military occupying forces) must have left it behind. Now I think that I should have bought it, because that picture made a great impression on me.
Encountering the Chinese Martial ArtsQ: Why did you first develop an interest in the Chinese martial arts?
A: It was at a used bookshop in Kanda in my mid-twenties. I was employed at an American military base as a translator, so I went looking for books in English that would be useful to my work. There were pictures with training scenes of Chinese military advisors in the English magazine “Life”, and I saw them doing some unusual types of martial arts. I think that it was something that had been published in America during the war. Someone in the Allied occupation forces (after the war Japan was temporarily controlled by American military occupying forces) must have left it behind. Now I think that I should have bought it, because that picture made a great impression on me.
Q: Was this when you were training in Karate?
A: That’s right. This when I thought that Karate was the best and most rational form of Budo. I started Daito-ryu Aiki Budo when I was around twenty-seven, but this was before that. My body was flexible and I was filled with the confidence that there was nothing that I couldn’t do. The pictures were probably Taiji Quan, and as someone who practiced Karate I couldn’t grasp the point of what they were doing in the Taiji Quan forms. I couldn’t even imagine how Zabansei (Zuò Pán Bù / 坐盤勢 – “sitting with crossed legs stance”), or Tanben (Dān biān / 単鞭 – “single whip”) would be used. When I first saw it I thought it looked strange and mysterious, and it was that impression that led me to meet Roshi and to the present day.
Chatting with Budo FriendsQ: You saw a newspaper article about Wang Shujin Roshi?
A: That was when I just past thirty years old. Through a series of articles I learned that a giant of Chinese Kenpo had accepted an invitation to come to Japan. The “Life” magazine pictures had left a powerful impression on me, so I thought that I would certainly want to go meet him.
Q: I’ve heard that you talked your Budo friends into going to see Roshi?
A: Well, he was a Budo-ka specially dispatched by the government of the Republic of China, and he was also a foreigner, so I was worried about the language barrier. I was too timid to go by myself. (laughing)
At the time I would go drinking with my friends after Aiki training and things would naturally flower into discussions of Budo, so I proposed that we all go see him. Kazuo Yokota was one of those friends. I had done Karate, and seen the photos of Chinese Kenpo, so I made the proposal enthusiastically, but most of them came from Kobudo arts like Iaido, so they just said uncertainly “Well, if you want to go that badly we’ll go along with you. You can try it if you want.”. (laughing) They were mainly interested in arts that employed the sword, or the staff, so it may be that none of them were as interested in the empty hand arts as I was.
Q: You never practiced Kobudo?
A: At that time I was training in the long and short sword of Daito-ryu, as well as Shuriken, with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei. Basically speaking, however, I wasn’t really interested in holding any kind of a weapon. I was more interested in how to take them away. It was more as if I practiced to understand the attack of the opponent by understanding the use of weapons. So you could say that our approaches to Budo were different from each other.
A: That’s right. This when I thought that Karate was the best and most rational form of Budo. I started Daito-ryu Aiki Budo when I was around twenty-seven, but this was before that. My body was flexible and I was filled with the confidence that there was nothing that I couldn’t do. The pictures were probably Taiji Quan, and as someone who practiced Karate I couldn’t grasp the point of what they were doing in the Taiji Quan forms. I couldn’t even imagine how Zabansei (Zuò Pán Bù / 坐盤勢 – “sitting with crossed legs stance”), or Tanben (Dān biān / 単鞭 – “single whip”) would be used. When I first saw it I thought it looked strange and mysterious, and it was that impression that led me to meet Roshi and to the present day.
Chatting with Budo FriendsQ: You saw a newspaper article about Wang Shujin Roshi?
A: That was when I just past thirty years old. Through a series of articles I learned that a giant of Chinese Kenpo had accepted an invitation to come to Japan. The “Life” magazine pictures had left a powerful impression on me, so I thought that I would certainly want to go meet him.
Q: I’ve heard that you talked your Budo friends into going to see Roshi?
A: Well, he was a Budo-ka specially dispatched by the government of the Republic of China, and he was also a foreigner, so I was worried about the language barrier. I was too timid to go by myself. (laughing)
At the time I would go drinking with my friends after Aiki training and things would naturally flower into discussions of Budo, so I proposed that we all go see him. Kazuo Yokota was one of those friends. I had done Karate, and seen the photos of Chinese Kenpo, so I made the proposal enthusiastically, but most of them came from Kobudo arts like Iaido, so they just said uncertainly “Well, if you want to go that badly we’ll go along with you. You can try it if you want.”. (laughing) They were mainly interested in arts that employed the sword, or the staff, so it may be that none of them were as interested in the empty hand arts as I was.
Q: You never practiced Kobudo?
A: At that time I was training in the long and short sword of Daito-ryu, as well as Shuriken, with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei. Basically speaking, however, I wasn’t really interested in holding any kind of a weapon. I was more interested in how to take them away. It was more as if I practiced to understand the attack of the opponent by understanding the use of weapons. So you could say that our approaches to Budo were different from each other.
1968
Phil Relnick, back row left
(now teaching Tenshin Sho-den Katori Shinto-ryu in Seattle)
Quinton Chambers, back row second from left
(now teaching Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo in Hawaii)
Capt. Charles (Chic) Eather, back row third from left
Kobayashi, back row right
Donn Draeger, front row left
Takaji Shimizu, front row second from left
Martin Gravestyn, front third from left
Nobuko Relnick, front row right
Phil Relnick, back row left
(now teaching Tenshin Sho-den Katori Shinto-ryu in Seattle)
Quinton Chambers, back row second from left
(now teaching Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo in Hawaii)
Capt. Charles (Chic) Eather, back row third from left
Kobayashi, back row right
Donn Draeger, front row left
Takaji Shimizu, front row second from left
Martin Gravestyn, front third from left
Nobuko Relnick, front row right
Face to Face with Wang Shujin RoshiQ: How did you meet with Wang Shujin Roshi?
A: An article saying that Roshi was staying at the house of Takaji Shimizu (清水隆次) Sensei (the 25th Headmaster of Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo / 神道夢想流枝道), appeared in the newspaper, so we went there. I’m not sure exactly when that was, but I think that we had rolled the up our shirt sleeves, so perhaps it was the beginning of summer? At the time Roshi wasn’t there, so Shimizu Sensei came out to speak with us. He asked us what we wanted, and then told us that we would have to come back another time, so I think that we came back on Sunday the next week. I was at the American military base in Kisarazu on the weekdays, so Sunday was the only day that I was able to go.
A: An article saying that Roshi was staying at the house of Takaji Shimizu (清水隆次) Sensei (the 25th Headmaster of Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo / 神道夢想流枝道), appeared in the newspaper, so we went there. I’m not sure exactly when that was, but I think that we had rolled the up our shirt sleeves, so perhaps it was the beginning of summer? At the time Roshi wasn’t there, so Shimizu Sensei came out to speak with us. He asked us what we wanted, and then told us that we would have to come back another time, so I think that we came back on Sunday the next week. I was at the American military base in Kisarazu on the weekdays, so Sunday was the only day that I was able to go.
of abundance and good health
From “One Hundred Aspects of the Moon” (月百姿)
by Tsukioka Yoshitoshi (月岡芳年)
From “One Hundred Aspects of the Moon” (月百姿)
by Tsukioka Yoshitoshi (月岡芳年)
Q: What was your impression of Roshi?
A: He was quite different from what I had imagined. (laughing) Since he was a Kenpo-ka I had envisioned him as lean and fearless, like a Karate-ka or a boxer, but when he came out Roshi was like a plump Hotei-sama – it was very unexpected. (laughing) However, I could not even begin to imagine what came next, I can not even begin to describe it in words. In any case, I told him that I had traveled four hours from Kisarazu to meet him, and feverishly begged him to take me as a student. At the time facilities for travel were quite bad, and it would take a very long time to travel to Tokyo.
A: He was quite different from what I had imagined. (laughing) Since he was a Kenpo-ka I had envisioned him as lean and fearless, like a Karate-ka or a boxer, but when he came out Roshi was like a plump Hotei-sama – it was very unexpected. (laughing) However, I could not even begin to imagine what came next, I can not even begin to describe it in words. In any case, I told him that I had traveled four hours from Kisarazu to meet him, and feverishly begged him to take me as a student. At the time facilities for travel were quite bad, and it would take a very long time to travel to Tokyo.
Teaching Daito-ryu Aiki Budo
Q: You received Roshi’s permission immediately?
A: Yes. He told me to come to the 6:30 a.m. training at Meiji Jingu. Mr. Kinbei Sato (佐藤金兵衛) also went to the morning practices, but it was impossible to make it to the morning practices from Kisarazu. Sunday mornings I was working as the Shihan-dai at Hosono Dojo, so when I asked him if it would be possible to train after that he made a special exception so that I could train at the Toyama Dojo. Even further, Shimizu Sensei also made an accommodation for me and I was able to learn the Jo.
At the Toyama DojoA: When I think of it now, it was because I was able to train at the Toyama Dojo that enabled me to deepen my connection with Roshi. It was a blessing.
A: Yes. He told me to come to the 6:30 a.m. training at Meiji Jingu. Mr. Kinbei Sato (佐藤金兵衛) also went to the morning practices, but it was impossible to make it to the morning practices from Kisarazu. Sunday mornings I was working as the Shihan-dai at Hosono Dojo, so when I asked him if it would be possible to train after that he made a special exception so that I could train at the Toyama Dojo. Even further, Shimizu Sensei also made an accommodation for me and I was able to learn the Jo.
At the Toyama DojoA: When I think of it now, it was because I was able to train at the Toyama Dojo that enabled me to deepen my connection with Roshi. It was a blessing.
Demonstrates Pole Standing in Taipei
: What kind of training did you do at the dojo?
A: In any event, Roshi’s training would start with a lot of Chanron (*see note). (laughing) Since it was called Kenpo we had imagined the practice as being something like — if they strike like this then one responds like that, so the others were really disappointed…. (laughing) For myself, while I thought of it as basic training in Kenpo, I really had no idea what was going on and just followed Roshi, doing Chanron in a daze. After that I received instruction in Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo from Shimizu Sensei.
*Note: “Chanron” is a method of “Pole Standing” (姑椿) Kikou (気功 / Qigong) , used here to mean Taisei Kikou (大成気功). In Mandarin it is pronounced “Zhan Zhuang”, but Wang Shujin Roshi, who was born in Tianjin (天津), pronounced it as “Chanron”. Roshi said that there was no meaning in teaching the kata of Taiji Quan or Xing Yi Quan to those who had not built a firm base of Gong Fu (the Ki which is the foundation of Bujutsu). Chanron was stressed from the beginning levels for the cultivation of Gong Fu.
A: In any event, Roshi’s training would start with a lot of Chanron (*see note). (laughing) Since it was called Kenpo we had imagined the practice as being something like — if they strike like this then one responds like that, so the others were really disappointed…. (laughing) For myself, while I thought of it as basic training in Kenpo, I really had no idea what was going on and just followed Roshi, doing Chanron in a daze. After that I received instruction in Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo from Shimizu Sensei.
*Note: “Chanron” is a method of “Pole Standing” (姑椿) Kikou (気功 / Qigong) , used here to mean Taisei Kikou (大成気功). In Mandarin it is pronounced “Zhan Zhuang”, but Wang Shujin Roshi, who was born in Tianjin (天津), pronounced it as “Chanron”. Roshi said that there was no meaning in teaching the kata of Taiji Quan or Xing Yi Quan to those who had not built a firm base of Gong Fu (the Ki which is the foundation of Bujutsu). Chanron was stressed from the beginning levels for the cultivation of Gong Fu.
Q: Is it true that your view of Budo became broader after training at Toyama Dojo?
A: People from many different Kobudo gathered at Shimizu Sensei’s place, and it broadened my horizons. Also, the Jo uses the sword as a partner. Since one can’t use the sword unless they understand it I also did Uchitachi with the sword.
I looked forward to going out drinking with my companions after training. (laughing) There was a river where the Shibuya highway is now, and the Harmonica Yoko-cho (ハモニカ横丁) shopping street was near there with a metal roofed Yakitori shop. We were regulars! (laughing)
They would talk about many things, and my interest in experimenting would start to grow. However, my focus was on the empty hand, so I would take in those things from the perspective of empty hand arts. It was if the empty hand arts were my main dish, but the number of side dishes would gradually increase… (laughing)
Q: How did training with Wang Shujin Roshi progress?
A: Even when Wang Shujin Roshi came to stay in Japan he would go home after one or two months. I think that it may have been related to his visa or something…
After that, we’d never know when he was coming back, so one of the reasons why we went to Shimizu Sensei’s place was that if we went there we’d be able to learn about Roshi’s schedule.
However, we were fortunate in that he’d teach us a lot of things in a short time, since he couldn’t make a long term stay. We did Taiji Quan, and he also taught us Xing Yi Quan. At the time, however, we did not really understand the real meaning of those things, or just how incredible the content of the training really was. I had also done Karate, so it was easy for me to do things like the kata in Xing Yi Quan. But one cannot understand striking with Ki just from kata. It might be said that I had some relative understanding of “Ki” from doing Aiki, but I think that my Ki itself had not yet been developed. Because it takes a long to really develop one’s Ki. (laughing) Because of my habits from Karate, at the time I was doing Xing Yi Quan with all of my strength! (laughing)
A: People from many different Kobudo gathered at Shimizu Sensei’s place, and it broadened my horizons. Also, the Jo uses the sword as a partner. Since one can’t use the sword unless they understand it I also did Uchitachi with the sword.
I looked forward to going out drinking with my companions after training. (laughing) There was a river where the Shibuya highway is now, and the Harmonica Yoko-cho (ハモニカ横丁) shopping street was near there with a metal roofed Yakitori shop. We were regulars! (laughing)
They would talk about many things, and my interest in experimenting would start to grow. However, my focus was on the empty hand, so I would take in those things from the perspective of empty hand arts. It was if the empty hand arts were my main dish, but the number of side dishes would gradually increase… (laughing)
Q: How did training with Wang Shujin Roshi progress?
A: Even when Wang Shujin Roshi came to stay in Japan he would go home after one or two months. I think that it may have been related to his visa or something…
After that, we’d never know when he was coming back, so one of the reasons why we went to Shimizu Sensei’s place was that if we went there we’d be able to learn about Roshi’s schedule.
However, we were fortunate in that he’d teach us a lot of things in a short time, since he couldn’t make a long term stay. We did Taiji Quan, and he also taught us Xing Yi Quan. At the time, however, we did not really understand the real meaning of those things, or just how incredible the content of the training really was. I had also done Karate, so it was easy for me to do things like the kata in Xing Yi Quan. But one cannot understand striking with Ki just from kata. It might be said that I had some relative understanding of “Ki” from doing Aiki, but I think that my Ki itself had not yet been developed. Because it takes a long to really develop one’s Ki. (laughing) Because of my habits from Karate, at the time I was doing Xing Yi Quan with all of my strength! (laughing)
Front row left: Takaji Shimizu, 25th Headmaster of Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo
Front row third from left: Hanjiro Shiraishi (白石範次郎), Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo
Front row fourth from left: Judo Founder Jigoro Kano (嘉納治五郎)
Back row fourth from left: Kiroku Takayama (高山喜六), Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo
Front row third from left: Hanjiro Shiraishi (白石範次郎), Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo
Front row fourth from left: Judo Founder Jigoro Kano (嘉納治五郎)
Back row fourth from left: Kiroku Takayama (高山喜六), Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo
Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo’s Takaji Shimizu ShihanHidemine Jibiki began training at Toyama Dojo, and in addition to Wang Shujin also receives instruction from Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo’s Takaji Shimizu Shihan.
Forging a Foundation for Budo
Forging a Foundation for Budo
Q: Previously you stated that your knowledge of Budo deepened after beginning to train at Toyama Dojo?
A: That’s right. That period was a time when I was entranced by the astounding techniques of Daito-ryu Aiki Budo, a time when I would forget to eat while conducting my research. Rain or shine, I couldn’t get Aiki out of my head.
Although I could begin to understand how incredible the techniques of Wang Shujin Roshi were I was not able to fully comprehend the techniques themselves. But I could understand that Chanron (Taisei Kikou) was the platform upon which Roshi’s Bugei was built.
Q: What about your companions?
A: Well, I guess that there was a difference in perception. They just came along to keep me company… (laughing)
Their interest, what they discussed with enthusiasm after training, was in things like what to do if someone attacked with some Ryu’s technique, and how to respond. (laughing) When I think of it now, I went because I had the desire and became a student, so from the beginning our motivations were different.
Q: What was so incredible about Wang Shujin Roshi’s techniques?
A: Roshi was aware that I had been training in Aiki, so he told me to try applying something. However, when I reversed his joints he’d just spin and slip right out. Then he’d send me flying with a single light tap.
Just to see such a thing with my own eyes was incredible. I thought that here was a person who had really build a firm foundation for their Budo. I learned just how important that foundation is from Roshi.
Learning from the MastersQ: It is thought to be difficult to learn from those masters who surpass human understanding…
A: That may be true.
However, there was comfort in participating in Wang Shujin’s training.
At that time I was working at the Daito-ryu Aiki Budo dojo of Tsunejiro Hosono in Koiwa (Edogawa Ward in Tokyo) as a Shihan-dai, in the afternoon I would practice Taiji Quan and Jodo at the Toyama Dojo, and then on Sunday evening I would return to Kisarazu, where I was employed . It was an extremely busy life.
On the weekend, after work, I would do Taiji Quan and Kikou, and swing a Jo hundreds of times while doing Shinto Muso-ryu’s foundational training. This was the period when I learned most about the importance of the foundation of Budo.
Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei was a master of Yawara (Translator’s Note: another name for Japanese empty hand martial arts), and I thought that I wanted to become like Sensei as quickly as possible. The techniques of Yawara were just so mysterious that I couldn’t resist them….curiosity was the driving force behind it all.
A: That’s right. That period was a time when I was entranced by the astounding techniques of Daito-ryu Aiki Budo, a time when I would forget to eat while conducting my research. Rain or shine, I couldn’t get Aiki out of my head.
Although I could begin to understand how incredible the techniques of Wang Shujin Roshi were I was not able to fully comprehend the techniques themselves. But I could understand that Chanron (Taisei Kikou) was the platform upon which Roshi’s Bugei was built.
Q: What about your companions?
A: Well, I guess that there was a difference in perception. They just came along to keep me company… (laughing)
Their interest, what they discussed with enthusiasm after training, was in things like what to do if someone attacked with some Ryu’s technique, and how to respond. (laughing) When I think of it now, I went because I had the desire and became a student, so from the beginning our motivations were different.
Q: What was so incredible about Wang Shujin Roshi’s techniques?
A: Roshi was aware that I had been training in Aiki, so he told me to try applying something. However, when I reversed his joints he’d just spin and slip right out. Then he’d send me flying with a single light tap.
Just to see such a thing with my own eyes was incredible. I thought that here was a person who had really build a firm foundation for their Budo. I learned just how important that foundation is from Roshi.
Learning from the MastersQ: It is thought to be difficult to learn from those masters who surpass human understanding…
A: That may be true.
However, there was comfort in participating in Wang Shujin’s training.
At that time I was working at the Daito-ryu Aiki Budo dojo of Tsunejiro Hosono in Koiwa (Edogawa Ward in Tokyo) as a Shihan-dai, in the afternoon I would practice Taiji Quan and Jodo at the Toyama Dojo, and then on Sunday evening I would return to Kisarazu, where I was employed . It was an extremely busy life.
On the weekend, after work, I would do Taiji Quan and Kikou, and swing a Jo hundreds of times while doing Shinto Muso-ryu’s foundational training. This was the period when I learned most about the importance of the foundation of Budo.
Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei was a master of Yawara (Translator’s Note: another name for Japanese empty hand martial arts), and I thought that I wanted to become like Sensei as quickly as possible. The techniques of Yawara were just so mysterious that I couldn’t resist them….curiosity was the driving force behind it all.
Hidemine Jibiki – Hakko-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo, and “The Road to Softness”, Part 4July 12, 2014
disaster relief
for the Typhoon of August 2009
for the Typhoon of August 2009
Hidemine Jibiki (地曳秀峰) trained in Shotokan Karate, Hakko-ryu Jujutsu, Daito-ryu Aiki Budo, Taiji Quan, Xing Yi Quan, and Ba Gua Zhang. He is President of the of the Japan Chapter of the International Cheng-ming Kung-fu Association (AJSMAF), and of the Japan branch of the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation. He is a Fourth-generation student of Baguazhang founder, Dong Haichuan.
This is the fourth part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki. You may want to read Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder Ryuho Okuyama, and meeting the famous Chinese martial artist Wang Shujin before reading this section.
This is the fourth part of an excerpt from an interview in Japanese with Hidemine Jibiki. You may want to read Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3, in which he discusses his experiences in Daito-ryu with Tsunejiro Hosono Sensei and Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, his experiences with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu Founder Ryuho Okuyama, and meeting the famous Chinese martial artist Wang Shujin before reading this section.
The Baduanjin Qigong (“Kikou” in Japanese)
Often practiced by Aikido’s Nobuyoshi Tamura
Often practiced by Aikido’s Nobuyoshi Tamura
Aiki Budo and KikouQ: Was part of your motivation for learning Taiji Quan and Jo to deepen your knowledge of Yawara?
A: Yes, that was part of it. That was still the period of my training in the fundamentals of Taiji Quan, and since I hadn’t yet gotten to the point of trying out techniques my attention was still focused on Yawara. Since my primary interest was Yawara, no matter who I got a hold of I only talked about Yawara. If I were to put myself in the place of the other person I suppose that I would have been annoyed, but I wanted to talk about it, and talk about it… (laughing)
Q: Aiki is also a Budo of “Ki”, was Taisei Kikou useful in the development of Ki?
A: I wasn’t aware of it, but I think that it was. Aiki is a Budo in which we apply techniques on each other and train through collision, but Chanron is different. Conversely, if I had not known Aiki I would not have been able to understand the value of Chanron, I might not have been able to continue.
Q: Were there other people in Japan doing “Kikou” at that time?
A: Not really. In common speech the word “Kikou” was unknown. I just groped my way forward feverishly. Until that point, whether it was Aiki or Jo, I had had Sempai and I could see the techniques, so it was easy to understand. If it was Jo, I could imitate my Sempai striking like this and responding like that, and work up a good sweat. If it was Yawara, I could imitate the instructor, and when I applied the techniques my partner would take ukemi and fall…and I would think “That was great!”. (laughing) It was easy to be satisfied. (laughing) However, whatever Yawara technique one applied to Wang Shujin Roshi he would escape easily. There was just a world of difference in our abilities. I wasn’t even equal to partnering with him. Every time that I thought “I have him!” he’d burst full with Ki and I would fly away.
Q: Was it that Roshi was already releasing his Ki before you came together?
A: That’s probably true…certainly there was difference in levels. When one reaches the zone that Roshi was in, one’s entire body is surrounded by a thick barrier of Ki like the halo around a statue of the Buddha. When that happens the very constitution of one’s body changes, and nothing happens even when a technique is applied to you.
A: Yes, that was part of it. That was still the period of my training in the fundamentals of Taiji Quan, and since I hadn’t yet gotten to the point of trying out techniques my attention was still focused on Yawara. Since my primary interest was Yawara, no matter who I got a hold of I only talked about Yawara. If I were to put myself in the place of the other person I suppose that I would have been annoyed, but I wanted to talk about it, and talk about it… (laughing)
Q: Aiki is also a Budo of “Ki”, was Taisei Kikou useful in the development of Ki?
A: I wasn’t aware of it, but I think that it was. Aiki is a Budo in which we apply techniques on each other and train through collision, but Chanron is different. Conversely, if I had not known Aiki I would not have been able to understand the value of Chanron, I might not have been able to continue.
Q: Were there other people in Japan doing “Kikou” at that time?
A: Not really. In common speech the word “Kikou” was unknown. I just groped my way forward feverishly. Until that point, whether it was Aiki or Jo, I had had Sempai and I could see the techniques, so it was easy to understand. If it was Jo, I could imitate my Sempai striking like this and responding like that, and work up a good sweat. If it was Yawara, I could imitate the instructor, and when I applied the techniques my partner would take ukemi and fall…and I would think “That was great!”. (laughing) It was easy to be satisfied. (laughing) However, whatever Yawara technique one applied to Wang Shujin Roshi he would escape easily. There was just a world of difference in our abilities. I wasn’t even equal to partnering with him. Every time that I thought “I have him!” he’d burst full with Ki and I would fly away.
Q: Was it that Roshi was already releasing his Ki before you came together?
A: That’s probably true…certainly there was difference in levels. When one reaches the zone that Roshi was in, one’s entire body is surrounded by a thick barrier of Ki like the halo around a statue of the Buddha. When that happens the very constitution of one’s body changes, and nothing happens even when a technique is applied to you.
Self Defense Techniques for WomenQ: You regularly say that the techniques of this Budo can be used by women, and are useful for self defense…?
A: Budo is know-how for protecting one’s body. Whether you have a little know-how or not will determine whether you can escape from danger or not. For example, from my point of view it would be unthinkable to die from being choked with both hands from the front. The person who is being choked has both hands free, so if they just strike a vital point that they will be able to escape. Whether you have that knowledge or not will make a great difference in the outcome.
If self defense were taught to female students in the schools as part of the curriculum I believe that a great many dangers could be avoided. It doesn’t have to be something as formal as Judo or Aikido, just what is usually referred to as self defense training is enough.
For example, just knowing some methods of responding when one is grabbed from the front, when one is struck from the front, or when one is choked makes a difference.
If one knows what to do in order to avoid those things most opponents will become frightened. It is because one does not know that they become frightened and unable to move.
Q: I see – aren’t self defense techniques difficult?
A: Not really, if one has the knowledge then they will be able to take action. I think that it would be beneficial to teach it in physical education classes as part of basic knowledge for women. In the past, women in Samurai families would be taught self defense techniques as part of their basic education. That was true until the end of the war, and then it gradually became outmoded, until today it has disappeared completely.
Q: But aren’t self defense techniques difficult?
A: In terms of Budo as know-how, there are books and videos being sold with a variety of know-how, it is the same as that. I believe that it is beneficial to learn how to avoid danger in the same way.
It could be said that women and smaller people are more vulnerable to assault, and through this type of education one becomes capable of escape. Standing in a place where one will not receive an attack when walking down the street or when encountering another person, one can handle difficult situations calmly. I think that the problem can be handled before the stage at which one thinks about how to apply a technique. Self defense is not a game, one’s life depends upon it. Just knowing two or three tricks perfectly will make a big difference. Budo is especially necessary for weaker people.
Budo Fulfills Many GoalsA: I think that one of the most wonderful things about Budo’s Taiji Quan are the health benefits. Budo is something that provides self defense and health without relevance to gender, age or build. Further, since it soothes strained nerves it is also a method for relieving stress for the businessman.
Q: Did you use this as a method of relieving stress during your time as a translator?
A: Yes, I did. (laughing) Working as a translator on the American military base was interesting, but it was extremely stressful. In the morning I’d concentrate on work for two or three hours and my blood pressure would rise as I worked. I’d struggle until it started to hurt – I wouldn’t be able to work in the afternoon. I’d practice Taiji Quan in the evenings, and my blood pressure would drop along with the practice. (laughing).
When one relies on alcohol to relieve the pressures of work they end up destroying their health. Budo is of a higher dimension, it’s not just the pleasure of practice, one can also discover something that offers mental and spiritual sustenance.
A: Budo is know-how for protecting one’s body. Whether you have a little know-how or not will determine whether you can escape from danger or not. For example, from my point of view it would be unthinkable to die from being choked with both hands from the front. The person who is being choked has both hands free, so if they just strike a vital point that they will be able to escape. Whether you have that knowledge or not will make a great difference in the outcome.
If self defense were taught to female students in the schools as part of the curriculum I believe that a great many dangers could be avoided. It doesn’t have to be something as formal as Judo or Aikido, just what is usually referred to as self defense training is enough.
For example, just knowing some methods of responding when one is grabbed from the front, when one is struck from the front, or when one is choked makes a difference.
If one knows what to do in order to avoid those things most opponents will become frightened. It is because one does not know that they become frightened and unable to move.
Q: I see – aren’t self defense techniques difficult?
A: Not really, if one has the knowledge then they will be able to take action. I think that it would be beneficial to teach it in physical education classes as part of basic knowledge for women. In the past, women in Samurai families would be taught self defense techniques as part of their basic education. That was true until the end of the war, and then it gradually became outmoded, until today it has disappeared completely.
Q: But aren’t self defense techniques difficult?
A: In terms of Budo as know-how, there are books and videos being sold with a variety of know-how, it is the same as that. I believe that it is beneficial to learn how to avoid danger in the same way.
It could be said that women and smaller people are more vulnerable to assault, and through this type of education one becomes capable of escape. Standing in a place where one will not receive an attack when walking down the street or when encountering another person, one can handle difficult situations calmly. I think that the problem can be handled before the stage at which one thinks about how to apply a technique. Self defense is not a game, one’s life depends upon it. Just knowing two or three tricks perfectly will make a big difference. Budo is especially necessary for weaker people.
Budo Fulfills Many GoalsA: I think that one of the most wonderful things about Budo’s Taiji Quan are the health benefits. Budo is something that provides self defense and health without relevance to gender, age or build. Further, since it soothes strained nerves it is also a method for relieving stress for the businessman.
Q: Did you use this as a method of relieving stress during your time as a translator?
A: Yes, I did. (laughing) Working as a translator on the American military base was interesting, but it was extremely stressful. In the morning I’d concentrate on work for two or three hours and my blood pressure would rise as I worked. I’d struggle until it started to hurt – I wouldn’t be able to work in the afternoon. I’d practice Taiji Quan in the evenings, and my blood pressure would drop along with the practice. (laughing).
When one relies on alcohol to relieve the pressures of work they end up destroying their health. Budo is of a higher dimension, it’s not just the pleasure of practice, one can also discover something that offers mental and spiritual sustenance.
Wang Shujin walks the Bagua Circle
Encountering Taiji Quan, 40 Years AgoRoshi’s Reception in Japan.Q: Forty years ago how was Roshi’s coming to Japan received by the average person?
A: Roshi was invited by the All Japan Jodo Federation (全日本杖道連盟). The father of the chairman, Izumi Toyama (頭山泉), had a great influence in politics and finance before the war, he was a very important person. That time, fifteen years after the end of the war, was the time of the post-war recovery, but even at that time I think that his father’s name, Mitsuru Toyama (頭山満), still possessed some influence. That his son had invited Roshi as a cultural emissary from China caused a stir in the mass media of the time.
A: Roshi was invited by the All Japan Jodo Federation (全日本杖道連盟). The father of the chairman, Izumi Toyama (頭山泉), had a great influence in politics and finance before the war, he was a very important person. That time, fifteen years after the end of the war, was the time of the post-war recovery, but even at that time I think that his father’s name, Mitsuru Toyama (頭山満), still possessed some influence. That his son had invited Roshi as a cultural emissary from China caused a stir in the mass media of the time.
Morihei Ueshiba’s teacher Onisaburo Deguchi (left)
Mitsuru Toyama, right-wing political leader
and founder of the Genyosha nationalist secret society (center)
Ryohei Uchida, ultranationalist political theorist
and founder of the Black Dragon Society (right)
Toyama was also closely associated with post-war Yakuza boss Yoshio Kodama
Mitsuru Toyama, right-wing political leader
and founder of the Genyosha nationalist secret society (center)
Ryohei Uchida, ultranationalist political theorist
and founder of the Black Dragon Society (right)
Toyama was also closely associated with post-war Yakuza boss Yoshio Kodama
Q: Was Budo still popular at the time?
A: Some of the pre-war atmosphere of popularity still remained at the time. But on the other hand, it was also a difficult time in which to practice Budo. By the orders of GHQ (the General Headquarters of Mac Arthur’s occupying forces), it was no longer possible to teach Budo in the schools, and many neighborhood dojo were also closed. I did Karate both before and after the war (Shotokan-ryu Karate / 松濤館流空手, taught by Gichin Funakoshi / 船越義珍), and we didn’t have a dojo to practice in so we rented the police station’s dojo. At that time Judo was popular and Karate was still rare – when we trained the police officers would come to watch us out of curiosity! (laughing) You could say that it was a time in which there was a great curiosity about Budo. Compared to that time it is quite different now…
Q: Did the newspaper article about Roshi coming to Japan generate a lot of interest?
A: There was a lot of resistance. Anyway, that the cultural emissary introducing Chinese culture to Japan was a “master of Chinese Bujutsu” was certainly a novelty. That’s because the introduction was through Budo rather than the usual mediums of ink brush paintings or pottery. That had a powerful impact. This was a time when there was an international image of Japanese people as having a deep familiarity with Budo, so I think that this was a result of the Chinese idea of the Japanese national character. Perhaps China had a strong desire to show Japan the high level of their nation’s Bujutsu. Further, the request had been submitted by Izumi Mitsuru, who had given much to the promotion of Kobudo, so it could be said that the desires of both sides may have gone hand in hand in making the coming to Japan of Wang Shujin Roshi, a true living national treasure of a Budoka, a reality. I could not imagine what kind of a Budo it was – but even so, when I saw the article saying “a master is coming” I thought that I wanted to meet them no matter what, in the enthusiasm of my youth. (laughing)
Note: There were no relations between Japan and the People’s Republic of China in 1960. At the time, when one said “China” it normally referred to Taiwan, the Republic of China, with whom national relations existed. Therefore, when speaking of cultural exchange between Japan and China this would normally refer to cultural exchange between Japan and the Republic of China.
A: Some of the pre-war atmosphere of popularity still remained at the time. But on the other hand, it was also a difficult time in which to practice Budo. By the orders of GHQ (the General Headquarters of Mac Arthur’s occupying forces), it was no longer possible to teach Budo in the schools, and many neighborhood dojo were also closed. I did Karate both before and after the war (Shotokan-ryu Karate / 松濤館流空手, taught by Gichin Funakoshi / 船越義珍), and we didn’t have a dojo to practice in so we rented the police station’s dojo. At that time Judo was popular and Karate was still rare – when we trained the police officers would come to watch us out of curiosity! (laughing) You could say that it was a time in which there was a great curiosity about Budo. Compared to that time it is quite different now…
Q: Did the newspaper article about Roshi coming to Japan generate a lot of interest?
A: There was a lot of resistance. Anyway, that the cultural emissary introducing Chinese culture to Japan was a “master of Chinese Bujutsu” was certainly a novelty. That’s because the introduction was through Budo rather than the usual mediums of ink brush paintings or pottery. That had a powerful impact. This was a time when there was an international image of Japanese people as having a deep familiarity with Budo, so I think that this was a result of the Chinese idea of the Japanese national character. Perhaps China had a strong desire to show Japan the high level of their nation’s Bujutsu. Further, the request had been submitted by Izumi Mitsuru, who had given much to the promotion of Kobudo, so it could be said that the desires of both sides may have gone hand in hand in making the coming to Japan of Wang Shujin Roshi, a true living national treasure of a Budoka, a reality. I could not imagine what kind of a Budo it was – but even so, when I saw the article saying “a master is coming” I thought that I wanted to meet them no matter what, in the enthusiasm of my youth. (laughing)
Note: There were no relations between Japan and the People’s Republic of China in 1960. At the time, when one said “China” it normally referred to Taiwan, the Republic of China, with whom national relations existed. Therefore, when speaking of cultural exchange between Japan and China this would normally refer to cultural exchange between Japan and the Republic of China.
Wang Shujin – the Hawk
Search for the Essence of Self DefenseQ: It is thought to be difficult to learn from those masters who surpass human understanding…
A: At the time I always thought that there must be better self defense techniques, and I was constantly searching deeper for them. Self defense techniques that did not involve weapons. It is easy to understand the advantage of holding a weapon, but I was searching for a Budo that would allow one to protect themselves with empty hands. That was the reason that I first chose to practice Karate. The speed of the striking and kicking and its rationality, I thought that it was superior to other Budo. I spoke of this before, but I had a friend from work who had a tendency to fight when he drank, and when he became violent I was unable to control him with Karate. Because he was a friend, I wasn’t able to use the strikes and kicks of Karate, you see. From that time my search for techniques that could control at such a time deepened, and I came to encounter Jujutsu. I tried to fight with Karate, but lost without being able to understand why, and I was astonished. (laughing) That was who I was when I started Jujutsu.
Jujutsu is a Budo that makes an essential point of relaxation, but I was still a novice in the world of Ki so I could not yet give up my allegiance to the physical power that is normally used in Karate, and I still had doubts as to whether or not it would be effective when Jujutsu was actually paired against someone like a boxer. I always had it in my mind that there must be something else, and it was at this time that I encountered the newspaper article. The words Chinese Bujutsu held an incredible mystique.
Nobody knows what “Taiji Quan” is.Q: At the time Taiji Quan wasn’t very well known, was it?
A: That’s right. Now Taiji Quan is known around the world, but in the Japan of the time nobody knew what it was. First of all, it was called “Quan”. When one said “Quan” (“ken” / 拳) the only association that came to mind was the games played in tatami rooms at Japanese restaurants. A fox would come out and the hunter would shoot them…like that! (laughing) Something like “rock-paper-scissors”.
Q: I guess that there was no knowledge of Kenpo? But isn’t Karate also Kenpo?
A: Even Karate didn’t use the word “Quan”. The only expression used was “Te”. In other words, when saying things like “That person has good ‘moves’ (“Te”)”. In other words, a trick. As in “There’s a trick like this”. Karate was originally called “Karate” (“Chinese Hand” / 唐手), but in past times that “Kara” was a general name for all foreign countries, so “Karate” meant something like “Foreign Tricks”. It was only later that Gichin Funakoshi, who was my teacher, used similar sounding characters to create the name for a “weaponless fighting art” – “Karate” (空手). This was because Sensei was an educated person, formerly the principal of a junior high school in Okinawa.
Q: Was it because you had done Karate that you became interested in Wang Shujin Roshi’s Kenpo?
A: It was because I always thought there must be “better tricks”. This was a time when I hadn’t yet mastered Aiki Budo, so I still had my habits from Karate left. Can I counter that technique with the speed of Karate’s strikes and kicks, can I receive a boxer’s punches…it was always in my mind that there must be some “better tricks” somewhere. I thought there there must be some more effective and logical method for when one is attacked by a large, strong person. Even when I was attacked suddenly in Hosono Dojo, the techniques that emerged were still Karate. I would receive with Karate and then just at the end would I control them with locks and holds. (laughing)
Q: Budo is very interesting, isn’t it?
A: Hosono Dojo at that time was really interesting. Judo was also taught at Hosono Dojo, but I would come for training in Aiki. I was able to research if this or that technique would work when applied against a solidly built opponent. I would think of this trick, or that trick. But when I thought about it later I realized that it was the basics that were important and return to the beginning again. (laughing) Of course, when I heard some master saying “I used this trick” then I would start to think “there are also tricks like that”… (laughing)
Q: You were on fire for Budo.
A: Also, the people who gathered around me were all people interested in Budo. It was all people who thought “If I can do Budo, then I don’t need money”. We’d just hold down jobs on the side, it was as if we were just working because we had to in order to survive. (laughing) After an enthusiastic practice at the dojo we would go right out to drink and then the Budo discussions would begin. It was so much fun, we wouldn’t go home no matter what time it was… (laughing) My job was in Kisarazu, so I wouldn’t be able to make it back to Tokyo until the next weekend, and I wanted to linger over each moment. Every time that I returned to Kisarazu I couldn’t wait until I could go to Tokyo next. Each day, after I finished work at Kisarazu, I’d spend my time training hard by myself.
A: At the time I always thought that there must be better self defense techniques, and I was constantly searching deeper for them. Self defense techniques that did not involve weapons. It is easy to understand the advantage of holding a weapon, but I was searching for a Budo that would allow one to protect themselves with empty hands. That was the reason that I first chose to practice Karate. The speed of the striking and kicking and its rationality, I thought that it was superior to other Budo. I spoke of this before, but I had a friend from work who had a tendency to fight when he drank, and when he became violent I was unable to control him with Karate. Because he was a friend, I wasn’t able to use the strikes and kicks of Karate, you see. From that time my search for techniques that could control at such a time deepened, and I came to encounter Jujutsu. I tried to fight with Karate, but lost without being able to understand why, and I was astonished. (laughing) That was who I was when I started Jujutsu.
Jujutsu is a Budo that makes an essential point of relaxation, but I was still a novice in the world of Ki so I could not yet give up my allegiance to the physical power that is normally used in Karate, and I still had doubts as to whether or not it would be effective when Jujutsu was actually paired against someone like a boxer. I always had it in my mind that there must be something else, and it was at this time that I encountered the newspaper article. The words Chinese Bujutsu held an incredible mystique.
Nobody knows what “Taiji Quan” is.Q: At the time Taiji Quan wasn’t very well known, was it?
A: That’s right. Now Taiji Quan is known around the world, but in the Japan of the time nobody knew what it was. First of all, it was called “Quan”. When one said “Quan” (“ken” / 拳) the only association that came to mind was the games played in tatami rooms at Japanese restaurants. A fox would come out and the hunter would shoot them…like that! (laughing) Something like “rock-paper-scissors”.
Q: I guess that there was no knowledge of Kenpo? But isn’t Karate also Kenpo?
A: Even Karate didn’t use the word “Quan”. The only expression used was “Te”. In other words, when saying things like “That person has good ‘moves’ (“Te”)”. In other words, a trick. As in “There’s a trick like this”. Karate was originally called “Karate” (“Chinese Hand” / 唐手), but in past times that “Kara” was a general name for all foreign countries, so “Karate” meant something like “Foreign Tricks”. It was only later that Gichin Funakoshi, who was my teacher, used similar sounding characters to create the name for a “weaponless fighting art” – “Karate” (空手). This was because Sensei was an educated person, formerly the principal of a junior high school in Okinawa.
Q: Was it because you had done Karate that you became interested in Wang Shujin Roshi’s Kenpo?
A: It was because I always thought there must be “better tricks”. This was a time when I hadn’t yet mastered Aiki Budo, so I still had my habits from Karate left. Can I counter that technique with the speed of Karate’s strikes and kicks, can I receive a boxer’s punches…it was always in my mind that there must be some “better tricks” somewhere. I thought there there must be some more effective and logical method for when one is attacked by a large, strong person. Even when I was attacked suddenly in Hosono Dojo, the techniques that emerged were still Karate. I would receive with Karate and then just at the end would I control them with locks and holds. (laughing)
Q: Budo is very interesting, isn’t it?
A: Hosono Dojo at that time was really interesting. Judo was also taught at Hosono Dojo, but I would come for training in Aiki. I was able to research if this or that technique would work when applied against a solidly built opponent. I would think of this trick, or that trick. But when I thought about it later I realized that it was the basics that were important and return to the beginning again. (laughing) Of course, when I heard some master saying “I used this trick” then I would start to think “there are also tricks like that”… (laughing)
Q: You were on fire for Budo.
A: Also, the people who gathered around me were all people interested in Budo. It was all people who thought “If I can do Budo, then I don’t need money”. We’d just hold down jobs on the side, it was as if we were just working because we had to in order to survive. (laughing) After an enthusiastic practice at the dojo we would go right out to drink and then the Budo discussions would begin. It was so much fun, we wouldn’t go home no matter what time it was… (laughing) My job was in Kisarazu, so I wouldn’t be able to make it back to Tokyo until the next weekend, and I wanted to linger over each moment. Every time that I returned to Kisarazu I couldn’t wait until I could go to Tokyo next. Each day, after I finished work at Kisarazu, I’d spend my time training hard by myself.
